VNA OF DEDHAM IS CLOSING>>>KIDS PLACE

It's awful (0.00 / 0)

I don't know why it closed. I do know that there will now be 100+ babies and kids scrambling to find care in the already overcrowded Dedham daycare market.  And there is NOTHING in the Kids' Place price range anywhere around here unless they're able to find a home care provider..... which usually means less flexible hours, more provider vacation days, etc. Not to mention the difficulty of finding a provider you have good chemistry with.    All by September 1.

I heard a rumor (but can't verify) that the closing is due to the town raising the rent on the property / buildings.  Anyone know more about this?

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by: Easting @ Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 18:00:58 PM CDT

kids place! (0.00 / 0)

this rumor is very true! The Staff was informed by CEO Karen Green this past thursday. Yes the information is very true. She is not looking for another building to put the day care in. The school is closing effective August 31,2009. The parent and staff are very upset.

The town of dedham does want the building back and the staff was told due the ecnomny. From what i hear there is A parent meeting to be held on June 23 (tues) from 4-6 .

It was a very sad day on friday !

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by: boscozoe @ Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 01:06:44 AM CDT

kid's place (0.00 / 0)

This is so sad to hear about.  There are so many friends and families i personally know at this center.  The parents are outraged at the short notice, as are the staff.  They rent for the building WAS raised, and the VNA Care Network is using that as their "excuse".  The roof of the building is also in the process of being redone.  Now from what i understand, the TOWN of Dedham is NOT paying for the repairs.  It is the VNA who will be paying for it.  Sorry, but the last time i checked, the "renter" isn't supposed to pay for that kind of repairs on a building that they don't even own! This seems like just another attempt from the Town of Dedham to get the VNA-Kids Place out of their building.  If anyone knows of any way that we could keep this center open, please post!  

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by: parent5681 @ Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 14:48:55 PM CDT

Not exactly (0.00 / 0)

The School Department had the roof of the Dexter School on their list of capital requests this year.  Bill Keegan included it in his list of recommended projects, but the Capital Expenditures Committee and the Finance Committee, and ultimately Town Meeting, decided not to fund it.  If memory serves, they took the money that would have gone to the roof and instead spent on cafeteria equipment.  The rational was to spent it on projects that would benefit the students, and not the tenants.

myDedham.org - a community since 1636 and online since 2007!

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by: Brian @ Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 16:02:07 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Ah, but (0.00 / 0)

I'm sure that since the VNA did do the repairs, that made raising the rent to force Kids' Place out so much more attractive to the town. So unpleasant.

It's just sad that this happened.  So many kids losing their 'home away from home', so many teachers and administrators losing their jobs in a terrible job market, and for what? I'd love to hear the rational for raising the rent - what the town intends to do now that this disruption is done.

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by: Easting @ Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 19:36:27 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

How much? (0.00 / 0)

How much is the rent being raised by? Does anyone know?

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by: cowisland @ Mon Jun 22, 2009 at 00:37:58 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Misinformation Given by VNA (4.00 / 1)

I spoke with the Business Manager for the Dedham School Dept this morning.  Here's the story:

The VNA was tended a one-year lease extension from the Dedham School Dept. in March, 2009.  They did nothing until this past Friday, June 19th.  They called and left a voice mail for the Business Agent (who happened to be out that day) for the Dedham School Department and stated that the VNA was not going to renew their lease.  This phone call was made after they left us the notices (a notice I have yet to see because my son attends Tuesday through Thursday).

The new lease was to go from September 1, 2009 to August 31, 2010.  The rent increase was $5819.00.  The rent covers water and sewer, heat, and electricity.  Not an unreasonable increase when you divide that by 12 months and divide it again by 75 families.  The increae to us would amount to $6.47/mo/child.  How much more would you pay for what we, or more importantly, our children receive for care and education at the Kid's Place?  Where else would you receive that value in this economy?

I spoke with Karen Green, Executive Director of the VNA, on Friday after I heard the news and she told me that the VNA had been on six month notices regarding their continued occupancy of the building from School Dept.  As of today, this does not appear to be true.  Also, she stated that the rent increase was too much for the VNA.  The VNA could have at least proposed a tuition increase to us before pulling the rug out from under us at the end of June.  Even with the increase as outlined above, it would be significantly less expensive then going anywhere else.

Finally, MS. Green told me that the VNA had decided to get out of the child care business IN DEDHAM.  It was not part of their mission.  When pressed about other facilities they ran, she said they had a facility in Worcester they were continuing to run, but they owned the building there.  If it's not part of their mission, why continue to run the Worcester site?  Is it rent? Is it not "part of their mission?  I'll tell you what it is, it's not right to do this now!

The VNA is suppose to be a holding a meeting tomorrow afternoon from 4:00 to 6:00PM for the parents to provide other resources for us.  Please attend and lets see if we can convince the VNA that this is the wrong time to try to do this and to reconsider staying open at least another year.

If possible, please contact Rep. Paul McMurtry office at 617-722-2460 and voice your concerns about this ill timed closure.  Also, Sen. Marion Walsh's office at 617-722-1384.  We have to try to convince everyone that the displacement of 85 children is more than unreasonable at this time.

Brian Haak
Westwood

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by: bchk @ Mon Jun 22, 2009 at 12:57:28 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Great information (0.00 / 0)

Thanks Brian!

What do you think the real reason is?

I'll call McMurtrys office and see you at the meeting tomorrow.

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by: cowisland @ Mon Jun 22, 2009 at 14:01:57 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Real Reason, Wrong Time (0.00 / 0)

The VNA wants out of this area as far as child care/education goes.  I'll remember that if I or my family ever needs their services for in-home health care.

All I can say about the VNA is don't use the Town of Dedham and its residents as the excuse and our children as the victims.  Their decision seems to go against their mission of being a caring organization.  There is truly a disconnect going on here.

Regarding Rep. McMurtry and Sen. Walsh's offices, I've called both and have followed up with e-mails.  I've also spoken to Bill Keegan's office as well.  Do whatever you can.

I'm looking forward to the meeting tomorrow afternoon.  I hope I'm able to muster up a happy face for my son and hide my disgust when I pick him up after that meeting.

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by: bchk @ Mon Jun 22, 2009 at 15:26:49 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Thank you (0.00 / 0)

Thank you, Brian, for looking into this. Should be an interesting meeting tomorrow.

We have a son who's been at Kids' Place for 2 years and are now floored by the challenge of finding a new provider for him and for our baby, who was going to start Sept. 1. Not many daycares out there with 2 slots, including one for an infant.

Erica
Roslindale

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by: efletcher @ Mon Jun 22, 2009 at 17:40:26 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

VNA Kid's Place; poor timing and short notice (0.00 / 0)

Thanks for the research Brian...apparently the VNA organization has made a decision that is causing us, the parents, a lot of hardship.

My son attends Kid's Place; he and we are very, very pleased with the staff and the quality of his care. It will be hard to find such a tight and loving community that the Kid's Place is. It's sad that the VNA has made this choice, it will be a shame to lose such a good group of teachers and staff. I hope other daycare facilities in the area can find room for these exceptional teachers and accept some of the load of more children to care for.

The business choice is theirs (the VNA) to make, however, the timing (economically) of it is quite poor and the short notice is an inconsiderate action, especially for those with multiple children. I feel for the parents who have to face this challenge. Finding a quality daycare is a hard task independent of cost.

I will be at the meeting tomorrow night, I look forward to hearing from Ms. Karen Green some of the details that feed into the "tough economic times" reason as is stated on our letter. Perhaps she can share with us some of the business details...

As a parent of a child there, I can tell you that if the increase in cost was the issue, it was never conveyed to us. Along those lines, increasing our monthly bill would still have been a better option (for us at least) than forcing the children to disperse to other locations.

It's sad the VNA didn't give the option of a rate increase or other measures a try before abandoning the Dedham Community.

adam young

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by: ayoung @ Mon Jun 22, 2009 at 18:37:55 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Take the town on? (0.00 / 0)

Can Kids Place parents do anything about this? 2 months notice is totally inadequate. I have 2 children who go to Kids Place and no hope of finding anything for them by September. I was on a waiting list for Kids Place for almost a year!

If the reason for closing is the town raising the rent, surely the 50+ sets of parents can make their voice heard in the town to try to prevent this - or at least delay it until next year to give us time to find alternative arrangements.

It can't be a popular solution to lay off 20 staff and displace 100+ children.

I'll be at the meeting on Tuesday with some questions to ask. See you there Kev!

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by: cowisland @ Mon Jun 22, 2009 at 00:31:33 AM CDT

Not "The Town" (0.00 / 0)

Last time I knew, that property was under the School Committee. I know this is kind of splitting hairs, but look to the School Committee for answers, not Town Hall.

And here is an example of why we need a new Avery School. You have to take care of your buildings folks ... even in bad times.

I thought there was a movement to put all building maintenance under a master plan of some sorts?

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by: cebonvini @ Mon Jun 22, 2009 at 07:42:54 AM CDT

ECEC moving?? (0.00 / 0)

 I may be wrong but I thougt I read somewhere over the winter that the town was going to close the ECEC and move it to the Dexter school..anybody have any info on that?

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by: brightonborn @ Mon Jun 22, 2009 at 08:25:09 AM CDT

I'm so upset! (0.00 / 0)

I'm so upset by this news.  I don't know who to be disappointed in...the town?  Why does Dedham want the building or the land?  Can't KidsPlace just relocate?  

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by: Katlo9 @ Mon Jun 22, 2009 at 10:16:04 AM CDT

Moving Not a Solution (0.00 / 0)

The cost associated to move would exceed the cost of just staying and paying the rent increase ($5,819.00/yr.). More importantly, they would have to be re-accredited for the new location.  Accreditation can take upwards of a year.  This would not be a feasible solution.

What would be feasible would be to talk with the parents (and the Dedham School Dept.) and discuss what it would cost the center to continue for at least another year or longer.  The VNA has built an institution there.  A highly respected community institution for almost 25 years. You don't just walk away with 60 days notice.  (Many thanks to Linda Byrne for being there since it's inception and helping to create what it is today)

Contrary to what I was told by the Executive Director for VNA, Karen Green, The Kid's Place IS very much part of their mission.

Brian Haak
Westwood

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by: bchk @ Mon Jun 22, 2009 at 21:13:32 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Moves afoot (0.00 / 0)

Hopefully that's exactly what will happen Brian. from what I hear the staff are considering trying to stay open on their own. I, for one, would be more than happy to help them out to do that - whatever it takes, 1 day a week commitment from parents, help with paperwork, whatever they need.

We'll hear more today at 4!

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by: cowisland @ Tue Jun 23, 2009 at 12:29:21 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Whoa, cowboy (0.00 / 0)

from what I hear the staff are considering trying to stay open on their own.

From the State of MA EEC:

If you would like to care for unrelated children on a regular basis in a center or building that is not your home, you need a Group Child Care License.

The license for VNA Child Care would not be transferable to a group of staff operating independently. They would need to obtain their own license, or apply for a licensing exemption:

http://www.eec.state.ma.us/doc...

In Massachusetts, the penalty for operating an unlicensed daycare facility is a fine of up to $1,000 and imprisonment of up to 6 months.  The staff should be very careful in how they proceed down this road.

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by: stebivule @ Tue Jun 23, 2009 at 12:38:25 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Professionals (0.00 / 0)

The director of the center has been there for 25 years I'm sure she knows the requirements. I didn't mean to suggest that they would do some under the table care, they are professionals.

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by: cowisland @ Tue Jun 23, 2009 at 12:50:30 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

VNA has wanted to leave for awhile (0.00 / 0)

The VNA has wanted to leave that location for quite some time. They at one time rented more than 1/2 the building. It has nothing to do with the town or school committee.  Ask the directors, they have been going on 1 or 2 year leases for quite some time and from what they were charging per child to the rent they were paying was hand over fist. Not to mention, bless those girls they were totally underpaid for the care they gave. I may be wrong but for a very long time i don't think VNA was even paying for utilities at that location.  It is a shame they are closing but just another reality of the world around us.

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by: manor @ Mon Jun 22, 2009 at 21:21:17 PM CDT

VNA Lease Costs (0.00 / 0)

From what I understand, the lease cost includes water, sewer, electricity, heat, and hot water.  Essentially everything.  Everything except maybe telephone and internet.  And the building is getting a new roof.  Thanks to the people of Dedham.

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by: bchk @ Tue Jun 23, 2009 at 12:17:36 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

so how did the meeting go? (0.00 / 0)

 If you attended the meeting yesterday can you tell us how it went?

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by: brightonborn @ Wed Jun 24, 2009 at 05:17:15 AM CDT

meeting (0.00 / 0)

What I learned from the meeting. If I got any of this wrong, please feel free to correct me.

VNA Care Network considers themselves a business, and Kids' Place a business.

VNA Care Network believes child care is incompatible with their mission - however, only in Dedham, as their Worcester child care center will remain open.

The center is in the red, but when asked directly how much in the red, VNA representatives declined to answer.

The center is under-enrolled by 10-13 children.

A tuition increase was not considered as a solution to the financial issues.

The VNA did not seem to be aware of how highly regarded the program is, nor did they seem to know that the program is considered an exceptional value and tuition is competitive with other centers.

The board--or the CEO, not clear whom--made the decision to close the center a month ago, however staff and parents were notified last week. VNA thought 2 months was enough notice for parents to find alternative placements.

VNA has a list of local programs and offered to help parents find other child care.

VNA assured parents that staff would remain at the center until the closing but would not offer specifics on what incentives would be offered staff to stay until then.

The city of Dedham offered a 1-year lease extension on the space, which they might take back at some time in the future (when is unclear to me) but the VNA has declined.

The CEO is meeting with 2 prospective buyers for the program tomorrow.

VNA is supportive of a small group of parents working with the director to explore alternatives to closing the center.

Parents at the meeting seemed passionate about working to keep the center open, and an effort is underway to try to save the program. We'll post more information here as things progress.

Here's an article about it.

http://www.dailynewstranscript...

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by: efletcher @ Wed Jun 24, 2009 at 09:11:21 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Hmm (0.00 / 0)

Depends on your pov I suppose but in my opinion that article is a bit soft on VNA and Karen Green.

"parents' anger and frustration spiked at times"

I'd say parents' anger frustration was high from the get go. Green's opening statements were weak and without substance. She dodged almost every question put to her and was condescending and evasive throughout; even attempting to finish up and leave a full hour before the meeting was scheduled to end and before many parents had even arrived.

I believe Green completely misunderstood and underestimated her audience; at times, it felt like she was speaking to a group of children and not to adults who have been spending significant sums of money at her center.

To be fair to Green, some parents let their emotions get the better of them and were personally insulting in their comments, she did handle that with some grace.

She did not, however, give satisfactory explanations for any of the most pertinent questions: Why were parents not notified earlier? and How much of a loss is the center running at? being the two most frequently repeated by parents. Green attempted to blame parents for their lack of support 4 years ago when she said she was fighting the town of Dedham on this issue, most parents in the room were not involved with Kids Place at the time and those who were did not remember being informed of any problems.

She also, and this is what pissed me off most, did not at any stage apologize to parents, for the closing of the center, for the mishandling of the notification, for the stress and inconvenience caused, for any or all of the above. Green's demeanor was patronizing at best, she backpedaled, rewrote history, alternately blamed her board for the decision to close and when called out on that by a parent accepted that she was the person who made the decision, tried to make parents feel guilty and ended by appealing to their sympathies by referencing her own children.

Having paid many thousands of dollars to Kid's Place over the years, I expected and deserved more!

On another note, I was surprised to hear parents repeat that the center's fees are lower than other alternatives, this has not been my experience, I have found Kids Place tuition fees to be at a par with other centers in the area, certainly not significantly lower.  

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by: cowisland @ Wed Jun 24, 2009 at 11:57:30 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Another Insightful Statement Made (0.00 / 0)

Ms. Green stated that the VNA has been discussing the closing of the Kid's Place for four years!

Why didn't the VNA make an attempt over the past four years to 'position' the center for sale or find someone to run the center?  The center would have been more marketable.  To undertake this attempt now, with only 60 days remaining, when they had fours years to do this really calls into question the management behind the VNA.  Or does it?

Meaning, is this sudden attempt at interviewing potential parties to take over the center part of making the closing happen?  Who could possibly pull together what's needed in a 60 day time frame, and still expect to have sufficient clients remaining to make a go of it?  How long can parents wait?  Is it all just part of their (Ms. Green's?) master plan for cutting the center loose?  I believe the plan is to eat up as much of the 60 days as possible to cause this to die on its own while they try to make it look like they made every effort possible to save it.

What's mind boggling also is it would have behooved the VNA to have been actively looking for someone to take over or purchase the business and not have to pay the costs associated with closing it.  That thought does cause me to question the management.

I believe the only way for this to happen is for the VNA to renew the lease for one year.  (Remember also that the VNA is the only one that has a license to operate the facility).  This allows the VNA to make a wholehearted attempt to find another entity to operate the center.  If they did, they wouldn't have to pay for closing and moving the contents of the building and it at least it would allow the parents to have their child or children complete another year of the curriculum.  This also allows sufficient time for parents to find another program to enroll their child into at the end of the 'school' year.  If another entity is found, then the later may not be necessary.

This is why it is imperative that as many parents call or e-mail their elected officials and community leaders and attempt to bring the VNA Care Network representatives 'to the table' as soon as possible.  We need a forum to re-emphasize our willingness, realistically, to work with them and make this happen to the benefit of all parties.  We need to emphasize the impact of their actions by closing in only 60 days.  Not only the impact to the child and the community, but possibly to their core mission or purpose here in Massachusetts.

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by: bchk @ Wed Jun 24, 2009 at 22:01:03 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I'm amazed (0.00 / 0)

that they're underenrolled, I've been on the waiting list for ages.  If an alternative center opens with the same staff I'd be THRILLED to be a part of it.

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by: OakdaleAve @ Wed Jun 24, 2009 at 09:27:43 AM CDT

Enrollment (0.00 / 0)

I would imagine enrollment would fluctuate as with any other center.  But Linda stated last night that there is a waiting list for infants.  This is good because a full infant room means the potential exists for full classrooms through the subsequent levels of care at the center.

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by: bchk @ Wed Jun 24, 2009 at 22:11:06 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Underenrollment (0.00 / 0)

This is also typical for this time of year because many parents take their children out for the summer but pay a nominal fee to hold their spot for September.

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by: bchk @ Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 14:12:36 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Scaling back (0.00 / 0)

I think she also mentioned that some parents have scaled back from 5 days to 3 or less due to layoffs or other economic factors. This has been true lately in my experience.

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by: cowisland @ Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 15:25:18 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

60 days notice (0.00 / 0)

That the center is closing is disappointing, of course. But I'm not sure I understand the anger at getting 60 days notice.  Most places are contractually required to give at least 30.  The more notice, the better, of course, but 60 days is probably above average.

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by: OakdaleAve @ Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 13:01:35 PM CDT

60 Days Notice (0.00 / 0)

I feel so much better now.

I am curious if you are a parent of a child or children that is/are enrolled in a day care and educational center/program.  An educational program that is scheduled to start/continue in September.  A parent employed full time now without anything to turn to. A parent of one or more children who are now out of school for the summer with an additional child that still requires the oversight of this center.  Or a parent of multiple children that require different levels of care.

If you are aware of a reasonably affordable, comparable center or centers with such programs, and professional staff and teachers to support it, please let us know.

There are approximate 75 families with 85 children facing waiting lists now because programs that start on September 1 are closed.  

Brian Haak
Westwood

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by: bchk @ Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 14:10:22 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

All valid points (0.00 / 0)

However, giving more than 60 days notice would likely have a strong negative impact on the VNA's bottom line. Let's say you give 180 days notice - your census is going to drop precipitously during the run-up to the final months as people identify new options and pull their kids out.  

If they're making the decision to close the program, they must be going through some very tough times.  My guess is that local center directors are under intense pressure to eliminate programs that are in the red - and not lose any more money when they do so.

According to the VNA Care Network's latest Form 990, they are almost totally supported by program fees and receive about 1% in donated support.  Their expenses and revenues (for FY2007) were almost exactly the same, meaning they were operating on a razor-thin margin.  If your balance sheets are, well, balanced, you can tolerate a program or two that takes a loss as well as others produce a surplus.  If the Kids Care program was throwing a huge loss at the VNA while the economy punched their other programs in the gut and they no longer produced a surplus, it would be logical that they would target that program for closure.

All that being said, Karen Green earned $297,000 in salary during FY07 and likely makes more than that now.  Even for a non-profit the size of VNA Care Network, that's a bit bloated - and for that kind of cash you can hire a replacement who's capable of turning around the money-losing programs.

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by: stebivule @ Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 15:18:52 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I understand your frustration (0.00 / 0)

I do have a child in daycare and I know how hard it is to find care.

I was on the waiting list for Kids' Place, but there was no space, so my child is in a considerably more expensive childcare center now. Consider yourself lucky that you got to take part in such quality care at such a low price for so long.

I have been looking for an equally high-quality space at a lower cost, and now I have to "compete" with former Kids' Place families in looking for daycare.  So this negatively impacts families who weren't even enrolled in Kids' Place.

But - I agree with stebivule - I think they gave short notice because if they'd given more, a good portion of families would have pulled out sooner than 9/1.  For their employees' sake, it makes sense that they gave limited notice of the closure.  It's an unfortunate situation all around, but I do understand that logic.

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by: OakdaleAve @ Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 15:44:04 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

60 days (0.00 / 0)

They may be contractualy obligated to only give 30 days notice and from that perspective (a business perspective) 60 days is generous.

From the perspective of a working parent with a full plate, trying to find quality affordable care in 60 days for your child is unreasonable. Even more so given the flood of other children also picking over meagre offerings.

Choosing the people and place you will entrust the care and education of your children to is a huge undertaking. Having to take whatever you can, now, because you have limited options is unacceptable. I would expect that people in the field know this, understanding their customer base needs, this is obviously not the case here.

I signed my older child up for Kindergarten at Kids Place in April, all deadlines for other schools are passed, to get him a new place will take days of research and compromise. VNA were more than sure that they would be closing at that point, why put 20 childrens parents through a charade knowing that you will not fulfill your end of the bargain? It is not only disrespectful, it is bad business practise.

I must also consider my younger son who I had planned to attend Kids Place, like his brother, through Kindergarten, for another 3 years. Are you aware of any quality care for 2 year olds which will be staffed by people who have cared for him since he was an infant? Who understand his language? Who know what he can and can't do? With friends he has grown up with? People we trust and respect and we and our children have bonded with?

This is obviously an emotional issue for many parents, it is also a customer service issue on the part of VNA, they have not considered the impact of their business decision on the community they "serve".

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by: cowisland @ Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 15:38:36 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

options for parents looking for daycare (0.00 / 0)

I feel terrible for the parents who will now be struggling to find daycare.  There are many licensed family daycares in Dedham - both small family (6 children) and large family (10 children). If anyone would like some names and numbers of licensed daycare providers you can call Carlyne at 781-329-5805.  She takes the calls for Dedham Daytime Families which is a network of licensed daycare providers.
Every member of the group has a current license from the state of Massachusetts which ensures that they are current in CPR and First Aid and have passed both a criminal background check as well as a check through the Deparment of Child and Family Services.  I wish all of you luck in finding the appropriate care for your child.

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by: LReisner @ Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 12:50:49 PM CDT

Anyone know the latest? (0.00 / 0)

Still hoping this place can find a new owner and keep the doors open!

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by: Easting @ Sat Jul 11, 2009 at 21:10:22 PM CDT

New early ed school opening at current Kid's Place location (0.00 / 0)

Just wanted to let everyone know that Little Sprouts, a local leader in early education and child care, will be taking over as of August 31 at the Kid's Place location. There will be no interrupion in care for all the families affected by this situation. They are planning to maintain all staff as well. You can reach Little Sprouts at 877 977 7688 for details.

There is more info in today's paper:

http://www.dailynewstranscript...

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by: kpurc @ Thu Jul 16, 2009 at 09:28:03 AM CDT